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enablemeplz) wrote2025-06-14 11:29 pm
enablemeplz) wrote2025-06-14 11:29 pm
June EMP Meme
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no subject
act 3 spoilers.
Okay so I have lots of thoughts about everything! So excuse me for paragraphs in advance.
1 - Painted Renoir.
I totally get where Clea is coming from. Because honestly? I can see what Aline did [painting her own family] being a huge taboo (if not the worst) for the Painters Guild. Closest thing I can liken it to is trying to resurrect dead family members which is... traditionally an abomination depending on the culture? I've always wanted to explore that side of how he was created. Because if Clea and Aline are aware of how painting your family is considered, I think he would be?
I would probably need to thread it out and see how it goes, but I can also see him holding some affection, since the painted family are given memories to be a realistic representation. Although Aline did give Clea's father a Byronic makeover which is a whole other layer of that abomionation issue. Because at the end, is that even realism? Some of it, no. Some of it, yes. Because her old man does have his flaws. And I think Aline would have wanted to escape to an idealised representation of her family as much as a flawed one. In any case, with the question of affection, I'm reminded of that line he has about what he does [knocking maelle out the canvas and thus giving her the truth] being a kindness. I think underneath all the messy feelings he would recognise that in Clea as well. Sort of how like she is with Alicia at the end of the endless tower.
Also yeah. Their family is manipulative. I can see him trying to get information out of her and hell. What if that's what prompts her to spill the truth? He gets information. But it's not what he's expecting.
2 - Real Renoir.
Everything you've suggested sounds good! What you said about Clea not being happy just because Maman is back could slide in nicely with Verso's ending, since we see her walking away from the monument. Renoir could approach her afterwards after noticing that? But considering Aline's criticism of him not being there [after Verso's death, but also leaving Clea alone with her war] he might not get it perfect and be somewhat late? I think he'd not approve of what she did to Simon given how deeply he loves her mother AND how he approaches Verso in act 3. But at the same time he exerted influence on Simon and contributed to driving him mad. So who is he to talk?
Clea could actually accuse him of acting like his painted self when she catches on he accepted Maelle's lying [sort of]. Because all he's doing is indulging her younger sister's delusions, right? Same as his painted self did with Aline.
I could see her visiting him in the Monolith once she suspects he's not leaving the canvas, too? Because that would be one hell of a conversation when he refuses to leave her mother to rot away to nothing. But also... even if he were to give up, because he is trapped would he even be able to leave?
But yes! I am here for all the things? Though I still need to make icons for Real Renoir. smh I should do that.
Clea also needs icons...I hate making icons...
Spoilers
Dude, I finished 3 hours ago and I have so many feelings. Bring on the paragraphs.
Painted Renoir:
Yes, exactly! That's sort of how I saw it too, and it makes sense for there to be a taboo around it. I'm pretty sure Clea couldn't easily repaint over painted Alicia, Renoir, and Verso without Aline noticing and starting to Pay Attention, but she sure as hell made her opinion about representations of herself clear (to both of them - not a fan of the Axon her either...). Plus what you mentioned with the idealism part of it makes me wonder what painted Clea was actually like. She might have actually been a good, obedient, skilled daughter...with absolutely no fire or soul, and given Clea's in the midst of her own grief (and the anger it's generating) being depicted like that would have felt like such a slap in the face and a denial of her own agency. (And why someone falling in love with that makes her so upset: Someone who prefers a neutered version of her would be seen by Clea like we would see someone falling in love with a Stepford Wife version of us.) Which ties into...
I think underneath all the messy feelings he would recognise that in Clea as well. Sort of how like she is with Alicia at the end of the endless tower.
Yes, exactly! Tower Clea very clearly wants Alicia to be herself and act of her own accord. I think even Clea's statement that she might not save Alicia (unlike Verso) is partially borne out of a twisted love for her: There won't always be someone there to save you, so you have to learn to save yourself. And if she's too kind, Alicia might cling to her as a replacement for their now absent parents, and Clea knows that's not going to do either of them any good. Does she go about things in probably the worst way possible? Yes.
Their family is manipulative. I can see him trying to get information out of her and hell. What if that's what prompts her to spill the truth? He gets information. But it's not what he's expecting.
100%. Oh, you want information, not!Papa? You can have it. It's manipulations upon manipulations, because if Clea tells them all what's happening, it might break the idealism a little bit and Aline might get sick of it. She might be banking on painted!Renoir trying to knock some sense into Aline and Aline hating it so much she leaves or erases him. It's manipulation all the way down.
Real Renoir:
I'm going to be real with you, bro. In Verso's ending, I can totally see them sharing that moment at Verso's grave...and Clea immediately going to her room and packing her things. The main thing that's kept her around was keeping them all safe in the real world while they were in the Canvas, and it's a prototypical eldest daughter reaction to family dysfunction to eventually bail. Especially after all of that. After what they did, how could she ever trust them around her Canvases? In addition to the way they treated her as a daughter, they also utterly disrespected both her and Verso as artists, and she can never trust they won't warp her work. The way she talks to Alicia/Maelle at the Tower, encouraging her not to get involved/wrapped up and to do what's best for her...that strikes me as someone talking herself into an exit plan. I can see Renoir putting two and two together and running up there before she can slip away. Clea like 'wow you left Maman and Alicia for five whole minutes good for you.'
Clea could actually accuse him of acting like his painted self when she catches on he accepted Maelle's lying [sort of]. Because all he's doing is indulging her younger sister's delusions, right? Same as his painted self did with Aline.
100%. Good job on completely abdicating your responsibility as a father while hiding behind it as a way to justify all of your actions! You're doing great! (You are not doing great.)
I could see her visiting him in the Monolith once she suspects he's not leaving the canvas, too? Because that would be one hell of a conversation when he refuses to leave her mother to rot away to nothing. But also... even if he were to give up, because he is trapped would he even be able to leave?
Yeah, either way is interesting. If he refuses to leave, Clea is furious and hurt in a way only child feeling abandoned can be, because it's so explicitly choosing Aline over her and Alicia (and dumping the responsibility for Alicia on to her, given she's not necessarily Maelle yet). If he can't leave, then she's more angry at her mother, and that's a huge broken pedestal along with a dose of existential horror, because her mother is willing to imprison members of the family to get her way, so now she has to view her mother as a danger to them.
This family is so healthy! ^_^
I'd be inclined to start with Verso's ending, just because I need to voice test a little bit and that's one of the more straight forward scenarios.
no subject
endgame spoilers.
Lemme pinch your quote methods because god that makes this easier.
Painted Renoir:
being depicted like that would have felt like such a slap in the face and a denial of her own agency
Right? Clea comes across as emotionless in the game to the point some people see her as a psychopath but I really don't get that at all? She seems to be reacting to the trauma of growing up in her family - and the murder of her brother. Because somebody set that fire. Also though she regards the painted family members as abominations she's skilled enough to recognise [perhaps by likening it to her own situation] that they, too, have no agency given the circumstances of their creation. Which would lead to some desire to see if they are capable of growing beyond how they were created. Art can take on a life of its own beyond the desire of the artist, right? I think that would apply to Verso a hell of a lot. Renoir too simply by association with her father. So imagine her disappointment when the fake!version of Papa is actually stuck.
She might be banking on painted!Renoir trying to knock some sense into Aline and Aline hating it so much she leaves or erases him
And I think that ties wonderfully into this? Because of course the representation of her Father would end up siding with her mother. Because as much as the Real Renoir does argue with Aline about leaving the canvas, he does love her deeply at the same time. It makes what Aline does in painting her family with "extra features" such a goddamn mess. But at the same time, I can see Painted Renoir [including with all those feelings for the Real Clea] respecting the fact the real version of Clea also gave him the freedom to make one decision in his life. It's complicated.
Real Renoir
Clea immediately going to her room and packing her things
She deserves it after trying to hold everyone together for so long and not getting noticed in return, honestly. Because you make a wonderful point about how Aline and Renoir disrespected the art of their own dead son. And given how deeply Clea connects to art and perfection and all that? Yeah. She deserves to speak her mind.
Given Aline is constantly telling Renoir to go away and do something else, I'd think it's entirely possible for him to leave voluntarily. Like... he's only imprisoned so long as he remains inside the canvas? Which connects with the above paragraph in such a horrible way. But I'm game for either approach with the monolith in informing Clea what she'd want to do in Verso's ending.
Anyway!
Give me all the things :3 We can always start with Painted Renoir if only because that would allow me some time to make icons smh. I'm always up for both ideas at once but I totally get people who prefer to focus on one thread at a time.
no subject
All the spoils
Quotes are useful!
Painted Renoir:
Right? Clea comes across as emotionless in the game to the point some people see her as a psychopath but I really don't get that at all? She seems to be reacting to the trauma of growing up in her family - and the murder of her brother. Because somebody set that fire.
I really shouldn't have looked up people's reactions to Clea (or the endings). Because yeah, hard agree. Given how Francois and a few of the others talk about past Clea, it's pretty clear that her current state is a result of her own grief. (I also think that if Clea were an older brother, she'd be received differently. How dare a woman be so uncaring!) She strikes me as being like the person who seems emotionless at a funeral because she planned it, she's working out how to pay the funeral home, running through what she's going to say to the lawyers so they can figure out how to pay the mortgage/not be homeless, etc. She has no time to be emotional. Plus it plays into the family dynamics: Verso is Aline's favorite and it's implied Alicia is Renoir's (even if she doesn't see it). So that combined with 'the oldest is fine/can take care of herself' has taught Clea that nobody cares how she feels so why bother? (Which is probably another reason P!Clea and Simon hurt so much.)
Also pretty clearly her own unhealthy obsession is that if she brings whomever did this to justice, then they'll all be safe and bad things won't happen again. She doesn't want Renoir back because she wants her dad back; she wants revenge/justice.
Which would lead to some desire to see if they are capable of growing beyond how they were created. Art can take on a life of its own beyond the desire of the artist, right? I think that would apply to Verso a hell of a lot. Renoir too simply by association with her father. So imagine her disappointment when the fake!version of Papa is actually stuck.
I feel like her feelings are complicated. I tend to see it as she dislikes Lumiere because this Canvas is implied to be where she and Verso chilled as kids, and she helped him make it. She doesn't like Lumiere and is on board with destroying it because it doesn't belong there. Imagine you made a treehouse with your brother and then your parents took it over and redecorated it. There definitely might be some testing to see how much of their own selves the Painted versions are, and I wouldn't be surprised if painted Renoir's lack of breaking out of his programming is what leads Clea in part to be so cavalier about the lives/experiences of the painted people, not realizing it's just Renoirs being obsessed with Alines and not necessarily a reflection on all the painted people. (Painted Alicia sure has agency.)
I also think that's why she stays away from Francois and the Gestrals; she knows her resolve would waver if she spent time with Franfran and then helped kill him.
It's complicated.
It IS. I love the idea of painted Renoir respecting Clea giving them the choice. Renoir's own 'cruelty to be kindness' used against him, essentially. Like ope, turns out your kids end up like you. Oops.
Real Renny
She deserves it after trying to hold everyone together for so long and not getting noticed in return, honestly. Because you make a wonderful point about how Aline and Renoir disrespected the art of their own dead son. And given how deeply Clea connects to art and perfection and all that? Yeah. She deserves to speak her mind.
Exactly. "Oh, we'll just wallow and Clea will take care of everything! :D Oh great, the manor is still here for us and everything is still functional! Now that we're Better, we can be a family together." Clea like, peace out. And again, she helped Verso with that Canvas, so she knows exactly what went into it and that's why she finds it so revolting. That really should have been her own private memory with Verso, but Aline/Alicia/Renoir wouldn't let it be. Why would they be any different with her own works? And God forbid something happens to her: The idea of them doing to her what they did to Verso is revolting enough for her to want to get far, far away. Maybe going so far as to burn her own Canvases/works if she can't take them with her.
Given Aline is constantly telling Renoir to go away and do something else, I'd think it's entirely possible for him to leave voluntarily. Like... he's only imprisoned so long as he remains inside the canvas? Which connects with the above paragraph in such a horrible way. But I'm game for either approach with the monolith in informing Clea what she'd want to do in Verso's ending.
Oooor... to be super twisting the knife, Renoir convinces her it's one when it's the other...remember: It's manipulation all the way down. :D
ANYWAY:
Yeah, we can start with Painted! I do prefer one at a time; E33 is already mind bending enough, not gonna lie. (In like the best way hence being so obsessed.)
Clea killing everyone or something else? The death would be fun because we can bookend E33 running into Renoir: E0 just running into someone who wrecks their shit completely that Verso and Alicia completely shut down. I forget exactly how it went down, but it's implied that Clea took the place of her painted self, so extra ouch there. Surprise! Death! :D And Clea proving her point by bringing back select Expeditioners just to rub salt in the wound because angy.
So angy.
no subject
spoilers.
Yeah! Clea masqueraded as her Painted Self - and it was convincing enough [ie traumatic] that Renoir later told Verso that Julie and Search and Rescue were Clea's creations. In order to convince his son to do what needed to be done. Manipulating him, as you do for your family. So healthy. =)
But that begs the question - when did they notice something was off? Because reading off your interpretation, I could see it being when she has to engage in deeper conversation? Or just her trying to steer them away from the monolith. Which works well because I think Verso said they first encountered her at the monolith?
But yes! I'm totally up for E0 running into her. I have an open post if that sounds good?
no subject
Still spoiled under here
As you do. Very healthy, great decisions! Clea like oh yeah just blame me for all your problems TYPICAL.
I would agree that her trying to steer them away from the Monolith might be the first signs of cracking, especially if the painted versions aren't the type to deviate from the plan/object/express their own agency. Like why is Clea so uncompromising all of a sudden? Or such a worrywart? Which also might reveal cracks of the real Clea because her family not listening to her is a trigger in a way it wouldn't be for painted!Clea - hints of the anger peeking out as they get closer and she realizes she can't stop this without drastic measures. And the deeper conversation might also do it just because in real Clea's experience, her family doesn't DO that with her anymore. They don't talk to her. :| Not since Verso died. :| :| Which might be why she stays and tries persuasion: It's her own temptation. But alas.
I can see Renoir suspecting it happened before the Monolith but letting Verso and Alicia believe it happened during - another one of his 'kind' lies. Especially to prevent the other kids from beating themselves up for not noticing.
Here?
Do you want to start or me?
no subject
spoilers.
I can totally see Renoir doing the same thing. Also your comment about a deeper conversation setting her off sounds interesting. Painted Renoir does show affection at least to Alicia. So it's possible to extrapolate from that he might also show it in a different form to Painted Clea. But it's likely not the kind of affection the Real Clea would appreciate. So yes. Give Clea some of that awful insight into why her mother is staying in the canvas. It'll be fine.
And yes, that's the one! Do you mind starting if possible? I've got some tags to catch up on now I've finished dinner.
no subject
Spoiling
Renoir tell the truth challenge level: Impossible. I'd believe he's affectionate/holds some affection: I think they do all love each other in their own fucked up ways, which would include Clea. And Aline clearly preserves Renoir's love for/obsession with his family in his painted self. But yeah, it makes real Clea's skin crawl.
I threw something up for the night before the Monolith so Renoir can see something is off and then we can pull the rug out the next day. You know. For extra
painfun! If there's anything that doesn't fit, please let me know. I've only done one playthrough and she's a super new muse for me, so I'm still finding my sea legs and I might misremember things!no subject
spoilers.
I just saw it! It's wonderful and I can't wait to get started. I also agree that it's good to set it the night before - it allows us to get a bit of development going. Thank you for posting. I'll get to it soon as I'm able. :)